Ep. 6: Reparative Finance with Kate Poole + Tiffany Brown
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Co-founders of Chordata Capital: Investment with a Backbone, Tiffany Brown and Kate Poole share their spiritually-informed commitment to sharing power equitably across race and class in their work of reparative finance as well as within their own personal and business relationship.
Highlights:
• A window into the world of anti-capitalist reparative finance
• The story and symbolism of a very real crisis in Tiffany’s life that led to her Sankofa tattoo split down the middle and gave birth to Chordata Capital.
• The genuine love and alignment that lives between Tiffany and Kate as they face this road to repair together
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Tiffany Brown
Tiffany worked in the non-profit sector for over a decade before transitioning into her work in finance. Her career has ranged from being Co-Director at YES! [http://www.yesworld.org/], Board member at Common Fire Foundation, founding advisor to Kindle Project Foundation [https://kindleproject.org/], to directing national leadership retreats at Resource Generation [https://resourcegeneration.org/], and serving on the Finance Committee for Haymarket People’s Fund [https://www.haymarket.org/]. Most of her work has been focused on working with young people with wealth.
Her entry into social justice work was through learning about race and racism in the US, and interning with the SE Regional NAACP’s Prison Project in Atlanta, GA. Tiffany cultivated her zest for justice at the University of California at Santa Cruz, where she graduated in 2002 with a bachelor’s degree in Community Studies.
Tiffany loves hosting dinner parties, dancing and homemaking. She enjoys karaoke with friends, where she can allow her inner performer to run wild.
Kate Poole
"Kate Poole is an anticapitalist investment advisor who co-founded Chordata Capital: Investment with a Backbone with Tiffany Brown in 2018. Kate believes the most strategic role for wealth investors in transforming our economy is divesting from Wall Street and shifting their money into community-controlled investments that center racial and economic justice. Kate has worked in the local investing ecosystem since 2009, and has been a member of Resource Generation since 2013. She co-founded Regenerative Finance in 2014 to organize other inheritors to shift control of capital to frontline communities. She has served on the board of the New Economy Coalition since 2018.
Kate is a white Jewish dyke and identifies as owning-class. She loves dance, feminist performance art, and making zines and comics. She lives in rural NJ with her wife, who is also named Kate."
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Kate Poole 0:00
I mean, I think that it's absolutely essential, on many different levels, that we really truly need each other to do this work. I think part of it is that, especially for white wealthy folks, they don't have the information or perspective that they need to dismantle whiteness, or you know, wealth hoarding in this country, or in this world. And so there's a need to work in close collaboration and to build relationships and build trust.
Naima Penniman 0:27
You ready? We gettin' down to business. Investing in existence. Shifting from a system steeped in extraction, that steady sappin' our peoples and planet to cash in, slashing. Widening gaps in our access to land, wealth, peace, satisfaction. Imagine basing relations on more than transactions. It's time for new pathways, and we need to shape them through our inner landscapes, our relations, our approach, our dedication. We're on the road to repair as a commitment to transformation.
Show Intro 1:00
Welcome to the Road to Repair, a podcast exploring our journey out of a "business as usual" economy toward collective healing and liberation. We're your co-hosts Andrew X, Jessica Norwood, and I'm Nikishka Iyengar, and we're very excited for this conversation.
Jessica Norwood 1:20
Hi, I'm Jessica Norwood, your host, and in this episode, I'm talking all about collaboration for liberation. You know me, I love to talk about relationships, and importantly, right relationships, and how important the foundation of your partnerships, your collaborations, how you move in community, how much that impacts what the outcome is going to look like. So today, I'm going to introduce you to an anti-capitalist wealth management firm. That's right! You're about to meet Tiffany Brown and Kate Poole, the founders and owners of Chordata Capita. Tiffany and Kate share a commitment to transforming power structures by helping investors redistribute wealth, rather than accumulate it. This episode is about how Tiffany and Kate created a company that's layered with beautiful ideas of shared power, intersectional base-building across class and race, and all of it coming together is just magical.
If you're interested in investing in a way that deeply aligns with your values, let me just stop you and let you know that there will be hurdles. Imagine being committed to racial justice and wanting to do something beautiful, like returning land back to Black or Indigenous families. And your wealth manager is like "No!", and your family is flat out against it. That's where Tiffany and Kate come in. They started a firm that is committed to helping wealthy investors transform our economy by divesting from Wall Street and shifting their money into community-controlled investments that center racial and economic justice. What makes this really so powerful, at least to me, is the deep intention that both Tiffany and Kate set out as the foundation of their partnership. Both Tiffany and Kate come from pretty different backgrounds. Kate inherited money, and Tiffany didn't. So when it came time to start the company, all the internal and external messages about power/control, started to come up. Traditional ideas about whoever has the money has the power or control, that was absolutely not what Tiffany and Kate wanted to build. This is what I mean when I say working at the personal and interpersonal, systemic, and ultimately structural levels. But I also think, is that they probably knew that in order to be the kind of advisors that their clients needed, they had to walk the walk. So this episode is about confronting the dynamics of power and control and how they did that, starting with themselves.
Kate Poole 4:26
In the fall of 2017, the three of us were all a part of RSF's inaugural Integrated Capital Fellowship. And I think because of that, or maybe through some other threads Tiffany and I were co-presenting with our friend, Aaron Tanaka, at Resource Generation's "Making Money Make Change" Conference, and we were leading a workshop for Resource Generation, which is a community of young people with wealth. We're leading a workshop on investing, "Why Care About Investing, and What Does Actually Values-Aligned Investing Look Like?" And part of that workshop was coaching – around how do you take your radical spirit and your radical values and communicate that back to your investment advisor, your trustee. So Aaron Tanaka was sharing about Ujima Fund and this really beautiful work that Seed Commons was doing and this cooperative lending that was centering radical-inclusion and centering shifting wealth and power. And people were really excited about it. But what would it mean for them to actually get invested? What would be the roadblocks they would face? And so I think at that conference, Tiffany and I, we had a beautiful time presenting with Aaron and we were also realizing that even though we could train people to be more confident or more empowered to make those radical investments, they were really going to run into a block with their investment advisors. And we knew that it was hard, emotionally and spiritually. We had props. We had a top hat that we had people were when they were playing the investment advisors that felt a little less stuffy or serious, but we knew that people didn't feel like they had the level of expertise to face-off with their investment advisor, or their trustee, or the patriarchs in their family to actually shift the capital. And so Tiffany, and I started to dream into what would be possible if we were investment advisors. If instead of it being a moment where a young person with radical values had to fight to get the money out of the extractive economy into the regenerative economy, what would happen if they had beautiful partners as investment advisors, and we could live fully into our values. And so we had a seed that was planted there at "Making Money Make Change.
Jessica Norwood 6:29
Tiffany, Kate, and myself, we know each other. We were in an inaugural fellowship program that focused on integrated capital, designing funds, deploying funds and advising and a good portion of us from that fellowship of stay connected, and we work together often. And so, I was there, okay, when the idea for Chordata sparked, and it's taken off big time. So you just heard from Kate Poole. And now I want you to hear from the dynamic Tiffany Brown. And I asked Tiffany about the community, that surrounds Chordata and tell me a little bit more about the people who hold this vision of collaboration and community alongside of you and Kate.
Tiffany Brown 7:17
I kind of think of there being two camps of folks. And in this line of work that we're doing, we call one of them "financial activist," but when it comes down to it, all of us friends that found ourselves along the way being like, "what needs to get done," you know. I mean, just Jessica, sitting with you and circle at the RSF Fellowship and being like, "oh, my gosh, we met over ten years ago and then here we are in finance." Anasa – coming across Anasa at SOCAP or whatever after not seeing her for years. So, I think that the one camp of folks, the "financial activist," just people doing what needs to get done in this day and age and building authentic relationships that are rooted in a lift-everybody-up, the joy, the pleasure, how we can actually have a true partnership that's rooted in shared values. I feel like that, the friends we bring in on that side. And then I feel like on the folks that are clients are who have participated in our cohort program, I think it's folks that are seeking a similar sort of joy and purpose. and another way of being able to show up and I think the deep line of inquiry and questioning that we have related to investing of like, "something smells funny over here" and that these folks were in a position where they already were kind of questioning, "okay, if I'm everyday trying to show up and be a good person with the way that I treat people, with the way that I shop, with the way that I build partnership, and then I'm trying to bring these beautiful values into how I do my giving. And then when it comes to how people think about their investing, it's just like the Wild West. And so I think that Kate and I were bringing, yes, a roadmap, how to introduce a lot of the qualities of being that we try and have in all these other sectors of our life, to bring it into finance in a way that's not boring, but is rooted in story and rooted in possibility, and rooted in a real honesty of, yeah, finance sucks the way that it's been created. Let's do something radical and different. And then to work to bridge these two communities of the financial activists, which a lot of are folks of color, right? And then most of our client base is white folks with inherited wealth, and really just trying to explore, I think, that we can be in community together across these [groups]. And then introducing the idea to, I think, in particular, our client.... Well, you know, what, both ways – we can be in this in a true community kind of way. We're not trying to be gatekeepers, but to facilitate the loving interactions, across these two camps of people.
Kate Poole 10:04
Yeah. And I think, too, Tiffany and I are, often we lead with ""this is spiritual work." This work of addressing inheritance, addressing the economic system, addressing the brokenness; it's spiritual. And so we bring a lot of ritual to it. We bring a lot of group activity versus isolated activity to it. But we also do it with a reverence too. So I feel like we're trying to hold both that we want to have fun together, and we want to be creative and generative together. And we also know that it's deep, spiritual, ancestral work. Part of doing this cohort program. Tiffany and I, we both come out of this political home – multiple political homes – but this political home of Resource Generation. And Resource Generation – part of the purpose is that you shouldn't be doing this work alone. You really need to be doing this work in community – both for accountability, but also just because it's more powerful in community. That's where we're actually going to make a change. And so I think we wanted to bring that same ethos to a super individualized, isolated industry of financial advising, where usually it's just you one-on-one with an advisor, and no one else to be like, "Well, can we do this work together as a group, this work of looking at the inherited wealth, looking at what repair looks like, and then practicing together making more radical choices."
Jessica Norwood 11:22
Foundationally, you don't do it alone. There's an African proverb that says, if you want to go fast, go alone. If you want to go far, go together. Now, from this, you're going to start to notice a theme here, that in order to really build an authentic relationship, you're going to find yourself having to share power. How do you navigate race and wealth and still show up authentically? And there are themes that I think that Tiffany and Kate really get right. They talk a lot about trust, and then risk, and then commitment. So what does it take to build trust? How does anybody even approach it? We talk about the way that they decided to navigate power and how it then enabled them to actually build trust. You're going to hear Tiffany speaking first about an idea or a way that they came up with this beautiful partnership. It honors the truth and spirit of why they want it to work together.
Tiffany Brown 12:28
In preparation for today, I was thinking about the road to repair, and all the steps that it took for me to get to the place to know in the fabric of my being that it's about cross-class multiracial partnerships. And I started thinking about the work of Be Present. And I started thinking about how – it was at the age of maybe I was 22, or 23 – I was working at this job, Yes, and had just learned about the work of Be Present founded by Lillie Allen [which] started out as a Black women's health project... but this notion of, Jessica, how you mentioned, the internal/interpersonal/systemic... And as a mixed race Black and white woman, grew up in predominantly white places, and then I find myself working at Yes. And there were two things that happened simultaneously at around the age of 23. One is I started seeking out other Black women, and really doing the work to find community in Black women. The other thing that was happening for me is that I, in participation in our program, "Leveraging Privilege For Social Change, was realizing that while I identified as a Black woman with so much of this – just having like the visceral understanding of what racism is – that, at the same time, seeing that it didn't just impact me as a Black person, that it was something that was eating away like young, white folks, rich folks. And the big thing that was like an "aha" moment, and doing leveraging privilege for social change, which was working with young people with exceptional wealth or fame, which is where I met you, Jessica. You might be like, "Ooh, exceptional." So one of the things that was my "aha" moment within that is that all these people that had tons of wealth, that they weren't okay, that they had chronic illness, that they felt isolated. And so for me, it was like "wow, if this economic system isn't working for people with money for rich folks, and then it's not we see all the ways that through the lens of racism or classism, we see that it's like not working for poor folks, for Black folks, for folks of color, what's the rig?" You know, something else is happening. And so, from very early on, for me, I was like, "we need to be in partnership across these lines of race and class and gender to figure out what the truth of the matter is.
Kate Poole 15:03
I mean, I think that it's absolutely essential, on many different levels, that we really, truly need each other to do this work. I think part of it is that especially for white wealthy folks, they don't have the information or perspective that they need to dismantle whiteness, or, you know, wealth hoarding, in this country or in this world. And so there's a need to work in close collaboration and to build relationships and build trust. And something that I've been learning through my own work in wealth redistribution is that in order to build trust, first, there needs to be a transfer of resources and power. So you can't invite someone into conversations, like, let's just build trust through conversations, because you haven't done that initial act of repair of sharing at least some resources and creating like that foundation. The foundation is that initial transfer of resources, and then you can build trust on top of that. And so I think that I was seeing in lots of different spaces, that there was this really unfair dynamic, where if there wasn't that redistribution of wealth or power at the outset, whether that's through material resources, or governance power, then people were being invited into a room, being invited into doing storytelling, or, you know, sharing their work. But it was kind of an audition, like always an audition process, and white people could white, wealthy people could pick up their bags of money and run – [that's] a phrase, Tiffany uses a lot. Whenever they got uncomfortable, right, there was no actual real accountability or structure to keep people in relationship to actually do that work of repair. And so I think when Tiffany and I were launching our business, we were getting a lot of advice from folks that were like, "Oh, well, you know, Kate has this wealth, and Tiffany doesn't. And so maybe Kate can employ Tiffany for a while, or we could set up some kind of thing where I was guaranteeing the salary." And it was totally out of alignment with our intentions, which were that we wanted to authentically share power and responsibility as we were building this beautiful business together. And so what we ended up doing is we ended up writing a love letter, collaboratively, to say, "you know, we have this commitment, we have the shared vision, we ended up having this gift." And I think what was important too, is it wasn't that I had all the resources, and Tiffany had none, it was that we had lots of different resources and experiences and skills that we were bringing to the partnership. And one way of honoring that was to create this foundation of shared financial resources so that Tiffany had the space to leave her work and come into this business and the security that like, if we had a disagreement around strategy around vision, it wouldn't be like if she didn't agree with me, then she'd have no financial resources and just [be] kind of left out in the cold. And so we ended up doing an initial love letter and gift where I gave Tiffany, I think around $100,000, a little over $100,000. We were thinking about what would it take for there to be a year of financial resources and for her to be able to move out of cold, horrible Boston back to sunny California, back home. And so I think we'd had that love letter and that resource exchange which really allowed us to have the level of trust with each other where we could build something really different together.
Jessica Norwood 18:16
Chordata Capital supports people in investing in community-controlled loan funds, and emergent Solidarity Economy investments. They're typically higher risk and require a longer term investment. Tiffany and Kate like to say that this is "Investing with Backbone," which I love. It's all about investing in a way that aligns your values with your actions. If you've been following the conversation, we've been talking about how Chordata came to be; and why it's so important; and really the community that surrounds Chordata: wealth holders, financial activists; how we're all connected inside of this, what kind of investment does that look like. As a person who also invest with the lens toward power-building and equity, let me tell you the getting this part is work. It takes commitment. I asked Kate about the type of commitment it takes to invest in the way their Chordata does. I wanted to know from both of them what the growth edge is for wealth holders or folks in this community that want to "invest with backbone."
Kate Poole 19:27
Yeah, I think something that Tiffany and I have in common that's very sweet is this commitment, where if you say you're about it, we expect you to follow through on it. If you say you're going to do it, we want you to do it. We want to support you in getting there. And so I think that there's this opportunity as more people are taking on this commitment to racial justice or wealth redistribution, [we] try to figure out what we can do to shift people from just posting about it or talking about it to actually taking that action. And I think part of it is, is spiritual to around having the spiritual and personal practices that you can make a big choice or kind of take a leap outside of what you've been told you should do with your money to make a really different choice. And I think, yeah, another answer to it is to be in community around it so that you're accountable and have that support and actually following through. And for us, I think wealth redistribution is looking at – I mean, this is like a baseline level thing that shouldn't even need to be said, but I think needs to be said – you can't continue to accumulate wealth, working to address, you know, wealth redistribution. We want people with wealth to have less wealth over time. So if you're trying to address the racial wealth divide, you're trying to address racial justice, but you also want to get market-rate returns, that is incorrect. That is not a way to address racial justice, or the healing that needs to be done. And so when we talk about repair, we're talking about wealthy white people having less wealth and power and Black communities, communities of color, having more wealth and power over time. And I also think when we're talking about repair and reparations, I really looked at Ed Whitfield as a leader and mentor around what reparations looks like. And he talks a lot about reparations as restoring economic self-determination to Black communities. So what is it going to take so that Black communities can determine for themselves what the economy should look like, what the work should look like, how land should be distributed, and all those different pieces. And so it's beyond like Venmo'ing people, although that's supportive. You can Venmo Black people all day, you know, if that's a part of your practice, but you also need to be looking at like the specific harm that's happened in our economy and in our country, and what repair looks like. And so part of how we understand that repair is supporting Black economic self-determination.
Tiffany Brown 21:47
Yeah, well, Kate mentioned how Resource Generation is like one of our political homes and as the Retreat Director there for three years, one of the very first activities we would do at the retreats is this historical timeline of the history of racial wealth accumulation. And what I appreciated about that is like getting everybody on the same page, like "These different acts of violence happen that made your family grow rich at the expense of all these different groups." And so when we were seeking to bring the radical value set that we have into finance, and then you try and overlay what that framework is on to investing, suddenly, like a whole other realm of possibility exists. So Kate laughs at me, but, you know, one of the places that we look to invest is First Nations Oweesta – building economic sovereignty for Native folks. And when we think about what it is for us to partner with our client base to invest in Oweesta, the idea of out of one side of our mouth, we can talk about repair/reparations, when we know that this country is built on stolen land and stolen labor, so when we're going to park money at Oweesta, it's kind of like, "oh, this is meaningful to be investing in this different kind of way," it's almost like a "How dare we charge interest when it's taken so much for First Nations Oweesta to build this beautiful institution that is working to address building economic sovereignty?" Yeah, it just baffles my mind that we would actually, in any way, participate in demanding some sort of return, other than "this feels good for my spirit," you know?
Kate Poole 23:43
Yeah, I think this piece that Tiffany was speaking to around this timeline is really important. Because all white wealth in this country comes from racist, violent systems. And so if you're a white person with wealth, that means there's work of repair to do. And so I think that that's an edge for people to identify what that repair looks like. And we have some, you know, theories of change and some frameworks that we use, but it's also really beautiful to see people trace their specific stories of wealth accumulation and look for specific opportunities for repair – whether that's a certain place or a certain sector, or, you know, whatever comes up in those stories and exploring those stories. And I think another edge is this piece around... I mean, it's kind of around integrated capital in some ways. So there's giving that people do and there's investing that people do. And I think that there's an opportunity for people to be both more creative and more curious about deploying the wealth that they have access to. We're seeing a lot of need right now for grant dollars. And that has always been true has been true for the years that we've been in this work together, but especially post-pandemic is there space in your investment portfolio to include more grants, more recoverable grants or loan guarantees or more structures that are shifting more of that power and more of that wealth into the communities that you're trying to support. And then I think at the same time, it's kind of both ways on the spectrum from giving to investing, we're seeing people that really need to be pushing more of their investing into more giving structures. And then also, there's people that are so focused on their giving, that they're not activating the investing side, and they don't even want to look at it. They say, "I'm all about wealth redistribution, all this money is going out the door, I can't think about investing. It's a false solution." So they're unwilling to look at the really powerful impact that they can have with that money over time as they're pursuing the wealth redistribution through grant making. And so I think there's this opportunity for people for wealth-holders to think more holistically about it and push themselves both to give more and to more fully activate the investments they have. Because the edgiest thing that we're doing right now, like Tiffany and I, is we're figuring out, "okay, well, we know that we want all wealthy people all the way off of Wall Street, and we want them all the way into the Solidarity Economy. But for people that are still trying to build wealth, are we saying that they should also be out of the stock market. So that's been something we've been talking about and exploring and learning about." And I think it's like an edgy piece, because I think both Tiffany and I are like, the stock market is bad, like investing in the stock market is a violence, it's extracting resources from workers from poor communities from the planet, you know, and accumulating them on behalf of rich people, you know, in concentrating them further. But at what point... I mean, this is like getting into this bigger picture, but it's about the economic infrastructure. It's the beautiful work that you're building, Jessica, and that so many people are building that's going to allow everyone to pull all their resources out of stock market and corporations into communities. But that infrastructure isn't quite there for people to have the kind of risk return profile that they need for their retirement or something in this local infrastructure. But if we don't build that infrastructure, then we're never going to get there.
Jessica Norwood 27:01
This reminds me of a dinner party I hosted a few years ago about investing in culture and Black imagination. And we were in New Orleans. And we had the beautiful honor of having artist Bmike come out and speak to our investor group. And as gifts, we got these beautiful T-shirts that I wear proudly, that says "I am my ancestors wildest dreams". That's what Tiffany and Kate make me think of, "I am my ancestors, wildest dreams." This is why we do the work of repair. Because someone believed that we would one day be free of bondage, but even more so that we would be free to live in love as we wanted, free to explore our imaginations free to grow our spirits. This episode began with Tiffany and Kate talking about how they dreamed up this idea that people could invest in the liberatory way in a way that was regenerative, that aligned with values of self and returned power to community. That Tiffany and Kate decided to work across class across race, to build a vision that could help others, that actually is our ancestors wildest dreams. So I wanted to ask them as our closing chat about what it feels like and what it means to be working through time, what it means to be doing the work, that is of setting ourselves to be good ancestors. That is our ancestors, wildest dreams. I think about Tiffany and Kate when I think of that, and the spirit of change inside of their idea of repair work.
Tiffany Brown 28:59
Being in socially responsible investing was an incredible moral dilemma, because I was seeing the contradictions that happen that we could say that we're doing something that's socially responsible, but then behind closed doors, it's about wealth accumulation. And there was very little community, except for what I was finding in our fellowship, of people that were actually trying to interrogate how to do things differently. So I go home for the Christmas break, and I get really sick. I actually got this spinal epidural abscess and was hospitalized for a full week; had this surgery where they split me like eight inches down my spine; the Sankofa tattoo that I have on my back cut exactly in the middle – actually, the surgeon took a picture of it and sent it to my mom because he was so proud of himself of like, what a precise cut he'd done. But the reason that I mentioned that is because Kate and I were kind of new friends like we'd known each other since 2013. But when I was in the hospital, I told my mom "Call Kate Poole! We need to get this started." And it was literally the time that I was convalescing after surgery that I knew in my bones, in the fabric of my being, that being in finance literally almost killed me. And that the only thing that could get me right, get back on track, is taking this big risk and starting this firm with Kate. So yeah, that for me was sort of like the spiritual pivot, right, because like, it's one thing – and I think I want to bring class in here, too – but it's, it's one thing to think like, "oh, that's a cool idea," but all the things I mentioned, giving up (a salary, health benefits in particular), after having this horrifying illness, I needed that spiritual fortitude, to know that we can't play in that realm of the violence of this system.
Kate Poole 30:50
Our connection to each other is spiritual. The call to create Chordata Capital: Investment with a Backbone together is something that's coming from our ancestors. And it's coming from our own spiritual practices and our own practices of being in relationship with the divine, and this work of healing and repair. And so in order to honor that, we want to bring that into our client relationships into the convenings that we're doing, into all of the work that we're doing together. Because finance is boring, and hard and can be really opaque. And so I think the thing that's going to keep us in this bleak industry and keep us fighting for something better and building the new is to have that strong spiritual connection. We are really inviting people into relationship both with their ancestors and their descendants. I feel like one of the rituals we've been doing for our business that's been the most wild is we write letters to ourselves in the future, often. And so we'll sit down – we even did that at the Integrated Capital Institute together – we'll sit down and we'll write a letter and try to dream into what's possible. And I think that, that practice and doing kind of ceremony around it, I think we did it on Mount Tam – when was that like 2019 or so, so beautiful – and to get to really be in it together and to call in that extra support and extra beauty and extra wisdom because we really are on this path of repair, and we really need all the help we can get. So we want the help from our ancestors and from you know, the spirits, and from the world, the nature – everything we can learn in that way
Jessica Norwood 32:33
This has been everything to me. So many beautiful names of people that we get to be in relationship with that we were able to say their names in this episode. And so I'm grateful for that. Kate and Tiffany, any last words that you want to say? Anything that feels like, "Oh, I gotta say this before I burst." Anything else to feel complete?
Kate Poole 32:57
I guess I just want to say I'm so grateful to be in this work with Tiffany. It was a really big risk that she took to partner with me and building this wild firm. And it feels so powerful to do this work together, to do this interview together, and to get to be walking this path together. So want to honor that in my closing words here.
Tiffany Brown 33:20
I love you.
Jessica Norwood 33:22
Àṣẹ! I love you both. Thank you for doing incredible work.
Tiffany Brown 33:26
Thank you!
Kate Poole 33:28
Sweet! Thank you!
Jessica Norwood 33:28
Thank you so much. Thank you for being so generous. I appreciate it.
Show Outro 33:35
Thank you for joining us on the Road To Repair. Our greatest hope is that this show will have a transformative impact for those of you tuning in. The Road To Repair podcast is produced by Andrew X, Nikishka Iyengar, and Jessica Norwood, with amazing post-production support for FRQNCY Media. Music for the show was produced by Andrew X in close collaboration with artist and sound designer Zachary Seth Greer, and the luscious vocals and original poetics of Naima Penniman. Shout out to Sofahood for all the amazing artwork. You can check out more of their great work on our website. You can find the links at www.theroadtorepair.com. We always love the social media shout outs and you can help this message ripple out to those who might really benefit from it by rating this show and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. And if you feel so called, you can make a donation to support the show at www.theroadtorepair.com. Thanks again for tuning in. And stay tuned for our next episode.
