Ep. 9: Believe in You Money with Jessica Norwood, Nikishka Iyengar, & Andrew X (Part 2)
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This final episode on Season 2 of the Road to Repair picks up where the previous episode left off by summarizing the discussion around Jessica's upcoming book called "Believe-in-You Money: What Would It Look Like If the Economy Loved Black People?" which focuses on the racial wealth divide, systemic racism in finance, the concept of an economy that loves black people and how it benefits everyone. Jessica then turns the focus back to her cohosts Nikishka and Andrew to share their personal stories about receiving and giving "Believe In You Money" and the impact it had on them and the stories and emotions come pouring forth. Finally, this episode closes out with a classic Black folk song that's guided many seekers in their quest for liberation and repair.
Highlights:
• Andrew gets choked up recalling an instance where he received "Believe In You Money" from a friend during challenging times and how it made a profound difference in his life. In giving "Believe In You Money" he discusses his participation in an innovative fund that invested in women and people of color-owned enterprises alongside his personal "Believe In You Money" investments.
• Nikishka discusses her work at The Guild, an organization focused on community-owned models of land, housing, and real estate. She relates a traumatic experience with a CDFI and shares how working with the Kataly Foundation – which provides integrated capital, including grants and loans, to support projects like theirs – has allowed them to reject harmful practices enforced by other financial institutions and she shares the transformative impact it has had on their organization and team.
• An interesting nuance comes up around the pressure and expectations that come with receiving this type of funding and the challenge of receiving love after navigating a loveless space but all express gratitude for the opportunity and repair that it provides.
• The cohosts celebrate the completion of this 2nd season of the Road to Repair and invite you to stay tuned for Season 3!
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Jessica Norwood 0:07
Andrew, I think what really resonated this point where you talked about how all of your ancestors, all of my ancestors have never seen this kind of money have always had to work. And so the ability to slow down ability to sort of get into right relationship with yourself with your ideas, the spaciousness I talk to entrepreneurs all the time about what it means to get money in right relationship to get believing you money, and I tell them, you need spaciousness. And everybody just sort of, again, just exhales and their shoulders dropped down from their ears. And there's this moment where their bodies just sort of relaxed, because you don't have to be in constant hustle trauma mode, that there is space in there as time for you to get the best, most thoughtful, loving interpretation of what you're trying to create out. Like, we can wait for that we want that. I think that's liberatory idea. And as we talk about it to each other, the way that our hearts open up, when we've given it, the way our hearts open up when we receive it, and that exhale that I have that spaciousness that I have somebody who gets it gets me a partner, that I'm not going it alone. That's a tremendous thing. And that is the reparative tissue that I'm asking for us to start to really push more. You ready
RTR Themed Intro 1:29
we getting down to business investing in existence, shifting from a system steeped in extraction that steady sapping off peoples and planet to cash in slashing, widening gaps in our access to land wealth, peace, satisfaction. Imagine basing relations on more than transactions. It's time for new pathways, and we need to shape them through our inner landscapes, our relations, our approach our dedication, we're on the road to repair as a commitment to transformation.
Welcome to the road to repair a podcast exploring our journey out of a business as usual economy to work collective healing and liberation.
We are your co hosts Andrew X.
Unknown Speaker 2:13
Jessica Norwood.
Unknown Speaker 2:14
And I'm the Kiska ion gar
Andrew X 2:15
and we're very excited for this conversation. Welcome, everyone. So previously, on the road to repair, we had an in depth discussion about Jessica's upcoming book believe in you money. What would it look like if the economy loved black people, you are definitely invited to tune into that episode if you haven't already listened to it. But I'll offer a little summary just to give a little context for our conversation today. So Jessica shares a personal story about her mother Marvel's entrepreneurial journey and how, among other things, she was unable to access the capital she needed. And Jessica shares how witnessing her mother's example, shaped her professional journey. And ultimately, this new book, we reflect on the so called racial wealth gap and the need for some new language to describe it. We talked about the racial biases and systemic racism present in finance and emphasize the importance of rethinking concepts like risk and return of capital, and exploring the concept of an economy that loves black people and how in truth that really benefits everyone. And just kind of a personal nerdy side note around that, you know, it's really self evident that improving the conditions of life for those worst off in society is a worthy pursuit. And there's actually a name for this idea. It's called the maximun principle. It comes from the study of ethics and philosophy, Rawlsian philosophy from John Rawls To be specific, and it's about managing risk and uncertainty. It states that if anyone assumes what's called the veil of ignorance, meaning that if you were completely ignorant of what the conditions of your life would be before entering into this life, then you would reason to make certain choices around managing the risk and uncertainty that you would face. So say there's two worlds that you could enter in one world. You could be born into the absolute best and ostentatious conditions of life think absolute power, absolute wealth, everything you could desire or better. Or you could be born into the most nightmarish conditions of life think extreme poverty, torture, enslavement, the worst you could imagine are worse. So that's world one. In other world, the spectrum is much less extreme from one side to the other. And the conditions of life that you might be subjected to are in better balance. You could be born into conditions where there are some limitations on the power, wealth and fulfillment of your every desire, but you're still true truly thriving, or you could be born into the conditions where there is some considerable adversity, but you still get a fair shot at living a really great life that you can enjoy. Which world would you choose? The maximum principle states that if you or any reasoning mind for that matter is presented with this question and that if you assume the veil of ignorance as to what the actual conditions of life will be, you would reason that the obvious choice is to go with the option, where the worst option available to you is still a pretty good deal. maximun reasoning basically says that after identifying the worst possible outcome for each option, that you choose the option where the worst outcome is the least bad. So as you've heard us talking about throughout this season, an economy that loves black people, and indigenous people will truly improve life for everyone, especially future generations. But you know, you don't need a philosophy degree to sort that out. Simply understanding our fundamental interconnectivity in society, we can understand that if a huge part of our population is not economically well off due to systemic oppression or otherwise, that that will create a drag on the entire system that will hold everyone back. And there's 1000 Other reasons that could be given around this. But this is in part why Jessica and the team at her company runway, their mission is to address the racial wealth disparity specifically for black entrepreneurs, which involves navigating the entrenched systemic racism, and anti blackness embedded in financial institutions and their practices and the need for alternative financial institutions and practices to create meaningful change. So this is the paradigm change that this new exciting book coming out believe in you money is all about. And today, we'll explore what that looks like more from the personal level to the systemic. So with that, Jessica, I'll hand it off to you.
Jessica Norwood 6:58
The idea about believing you money is really pretty simple. We're just talking about showing up with a level of humanity and right relationship with our resources. And so it could be the smaller amounts of money of believing you money that I talk about around ways where people have supported family members and friends, I give a couple of anecdotes of people who are thinking about a friend of mine who is featured in a book, and their sister started a nursing program, I believe, or maybe it was like a dental hygienist program and her sister pay for all the college fees and pay for her business license as a gift to kind of get her going. And that would be believing you money believing you money doesn't have to be the most all the way wild out there kind of idea. But it is intentional. It is saying that we want to invest in the things that have been taken away from us. So when you have a racial wealth gap, when you have a history of exploitation, what is stripped away, what is lost in that, that level of dignity, respect, humanity, innovation, creativity, and people saying, I see you, I believe in you. And I want what you have. And I want what you have, because I believe it is a valuable contribution to who we are as a people, every business owner, not just the white guys who get to, you know, frolic around as I'm a business owner. But every person who gets out there who has a smart idea should have an opportunity to present that idea for the kind of capital support that they need, not just a few people who are able to inherit the level of relationships to get going, that doesn't work. It doesn't work for us, it doesn't work for our communities. And the proof is out there. The proof shows that there are communities right now, black and brown communities that are falling apart businesses, buildings, unused children and young people who are looking for jobs. But those things aren't there, because we haven't made the level of right investment in folks. So it can be as small as starting off and paying for dental hygiene school and buying a business license to get yourself going in your company. And it can be larger, like taking your loan fund or your C suite banking team and your board of directors through a thoughtful approach around questioning, are we doing a transformation here? Are we just doing transactions? Are we putting more of the risk on our return to capital? Or are we actually looking at the risk if we don't do these deals? Those are the questions that have to be posed inside of this work. It's information in the book that you can right size, you can fit it towards yourself individually and how you might want to invest as an angel investor or invest just as a friend into other people's work, but to know that it should be happening it to know that it is possible to do this work and to know that it is highly effective. IV is really the name of the game. And so speaking about highly effective believing you money I want to ask you to have you ever gotten believing your money before? Because I want to know about it if you've gotten believing you money, and it could be a small believing you money but something that pops up for you, that feels like it was replenishing. It was necessary. Somebody saw you, they believed in you. They gave you the wind beneath your wings, so to speak. What did that feel like? What Why did that matter for you? I'd love to hear that. And then if you've ever given it to anybody, because giving it feels extraordinary. So I want to talk about if you've ever given any believing you money to those my two questions my two prompts co host, what would say you?
Andrew X 10:48
Okay, I'll jump on in there. I was a little uncertain on the receiving side initially, but like you said, in a smaller and more personal kind of way, I have to shout out my best friend in this life. Joshua Zellner, I have twice been in a situation where I was not in a great place financially, and could have continued independently. But I would have had suffered a major setback. One of those points was a time when I was in college. And one of those points was just last year. And yeah, I guess I'll say like the feeling of receiving that is really difficult to describe. Because you don't often receive that kind of faith and trust, especially from a monetary perspective, or at least I have not. So as you can probably tell, yet a little bit motional in thinking about the actual feeling of receiving that, and what that meant for me, because it's made the whole difference. For me, my relationship with this guy in general could say that, frankly, who knows if I even still be here to be real without him in my life, because he's been such family. At any rate, yeah, just this past year. I haven't like talked a ton about it. But I've been exploring this minimalistic nomadic flow, and have been doing very well at that, as I'm navigating, what, for me is a liberatory practice with livelihood and trying to find my way in a true and authentic way. Whereas none of my ancestors for the past several generations have even had that ability or awareness of that as an option. I've only been in relationship with work in a way strictly to make money. And so all of the love and everything that I've received is that legacy, I'm trying to carry that forward and transform some of that aspect. But as I'm navigating that journey, and prioritizing financial freedom, I'm erring on the side of a fair amount of financial insecurity. So basically, last year, I'm in this nomadic flow, I have a really incredible rig setup my car system, it's fully by choice, a lot of people sometimes will be like, are you okay? So anyway, my car was totaled during that time. And that threw a pretty big wrench into my strategy at the moment, and I was able to adapt and flow for a few months. I'm a very self reliant self determination, independently minded person, so it's not easy for me to, you know, call in support. And just kind of like, sorry, oh, I didn't anticipate the motions coming up. But I guess I'm just really moved by. But But yeah, so really just sharing the situation in a moment of catching up with my friend Josh, like, without any with I guess I just haven't really like integrated this experience.
Jessica Norwood 14:08
And take some breaths. Take some breaths in Absolutely. Likes. Yeah.
Andrew X 14:14
You know, I guess. Yeah, without without any hesitation. He offered, you know, whatever support that I needed around that, and, you know, getting me back on my feet. And that's it. And so we basically made that happen. He was able to lend me some funds and similar to one time previously, but with a lot less money before he extended several $1,000 he and his partner in order for me to get back on my feet with no real terms except for you know, try and get this back to us at your earliest convenience. Yeah, and are supportive of me continuing to like live my life in my flow. You know, not me It'll be just like grow myself down and whatever thing to pay them back immediately, they are in full trust. And I feel like in that act really embody a lot of what we're talking about. And then I think on the giving side, there's two examples that come to mind. Basically, at an organizational level, I was formerly a partner team called Lift economy. And we created something called the force for good Fund, which invests in women and people of color owned enterprises that we believed had outsized impact. And actually, that was how I came into contact with Nick ishka. And the guild. There was a really incredible interview episode on the podcast that I used to produce the next economy now podcast at lift economy carries on that just came out this past week, that is a really incredible deep dive into the kitchen because work but that was kind of an experience of leaning into both the terms and how that was structured. And admittedly was not as experienced on some of the crafting that side of things, but was able to witness and participate in some of the decisions of how we were allocating the funds that we raised or that on a more personal level, there's this rich dad poor dad book series by this guy, Robert Kiyosaki, and I don't really subscribe to a lot of what they're talking about. But there's this framework called the Cashflow Quadrant, and it's basically how you earn your income as an employee, as a, you know, solopreneur self employed person, a business owner or an investor. I haven't personally felt close to being an investor thus far in my life, but I'm still reaching in that direction, and have tried to approach it in the ways that we're talking about, and one of them was not a black owned company. One of them is a company called select track. And it was just a company that I believed on an ecological level and from a social justice perspective was positioned to have a significant impact. And I'm naming these personal ones, because I gave really, in that context invested, even though it was in a context where I may receive return, that wasn't my real agenda. My real agenda was the impact the principles that we're talking about, and specifically, more closely aligned with the belief in you money, what would the economy look like if it loves black people ethos, this last company that I'll mention, again, actually was somebody that I connected with through nakiska. When I went to visit her in Atlanta, I connected with this company called dope coffee, who was part of a cohort that the guild was facilitating an accelerator program. And I was deeply moved by the founders of that company. They did a equity crowdfunding raise, and I didn't hesitate. You know, even though I don't have much to throw down. I think I threw down like $1,000 or something like that. If something that I think that's kind of the example that I have to share around what it was like to give that and it felt amazing to offer that. And I've been following the success of dope coffee. It's felt honestly even a lot more gratifying for me, especially as a black man to support and see this other black couple thriving. And yeah, in the case guy, I guess that's maybe a good segue to hand it over to you.
Nikishka Iyengar 18:24
Thanks, Andrew. Yeah, okay. So when I've received believe in the money, Jessica is from somebody that was featured in your book, and in this podcast, aka IBO and the team at fatale foundation for the work that we're doing at the guild. And just a reminder to our listeners were cooperative that is focused on building community owned models of Land and Housing and real estate, really trying to take housing and real estate off the speculative market and turn it back to the hands of communities to meet their own needs, whether that's housing, whether that's food access, whether that's childcare, whatever the needs might be just taking assets in neighborhoods, especially in specifically black and brown neighborhoods, making sure that they are community owned and stewarded. As you can imagine, we're butting up against all of the various systems we just talked about when it comes to financial institutions, we are butting up against the violent system that is the real estate industry in its entirety. In the same way that we talked about the financial system being rooted in practices, tracing the roots of that back to slavery. In that same way, the real estate industry its roots are traced back to both slavery and the colonization of native peoples land, mortgage laws in this country and foreclosure laws in this country. Like if you look through the laws, there's a scholar Casey Park, whose work focuses on tracing the history of real estate long where that came from. Modern day practices are not separate from very violent colonization and In the enslavement of black people and Native American people, in grappling with all of that, trying to build this alternative, if we're talking about creating repair and self determination for black and brown communities, and repairing harms that have been caused over centuries, that is not something that is going to be solved on a two year loan term, a three year loan term, a five year loan term. Or if you think about philanthropy in their grant cycle, in one year, we can't report Oh, yeah, we've solved for a lot of these problems. I say all of that, because that is the expectation that traditional capital, including philanthropy has have projects on the ground that are trying to address these problems, and maca, like I said, we featured her in season one, y'all should go check out that episode. I want to uplift her work in creating both the restorative economies framework. And then the fun that sits within Qatar Foundation and the work of her entire staff and team Lynn hoy Jocelyn long, Lena Shalabi, the whole the whole team from fatality foundation, I think both Jessica you and I have received believe any money from them. Let me just share that. So the capital in and of itself, they have really taken what we call in the field, an integrated capital approach. So integrated capital means if you look at capital as a spectrum from grants that you don't have to pay back all the way up to loans that may be collateralized. And then to equity, that there's no sort of that's really collateral, but there's some kind of exit event for the investor. So if you just think about the entire capital spectrum, I know there's a lot in between, but I'm trying to keep it high level right now. Fatality foundation sits across that integrated capital spectrum and gives capital across the spectrum. And so we have received both grants and an uncollateralized loan from them which the loan has increased. I mentioned when we were talking about CDFIs, the ways in which the bureaucracy and a process of the CDFI. It's a large CDFI. They have lofty claims around closing the racial wealth gap, they launched a big fund around supporting bipoc businesses and developers post 2020. I'm not going to name them but it's also sort of endemic to all of CDFI is really all the big ones at least, like I said, their process took so long name continues to take so long in their underwriting were just to describe what that means. So when you submit for an investment to a CDFI, in our case, it was a real estate project. Like I was saying it was this community ownership project that you all can check out on our website. That includes housing that includes some commercial space and includes kitchen spaces and includes a grocery store, it's really trying to address from a whole system's perspective, the needs of this particular neighborhood that we're based in. And, you know, the Fed has been obviously increasing interest rates over the last couple of years. And the CDFI because this process has taken so long our interest rates each time when we would submit what is called our underwriting package with all of the things this sort of financial model and the pro forma of the project, everything connected to the real estate itself, the environmental reports, the surveys, the appraisals, everything, we submit the package, we would receive something on the CDFI saying, Oh, the credit committee has come back with we need XYZ and so we would bring XYZ you back to them. And then they would say, Okay, well, now we need ABC. And so the cycle kind of has continued for so long that like I said, interest rates have gone up, and now they want us to increase rents on our project. And that is going to mean being an actual vehicle of gentrification, when that's the very thing we're trying to solve for or create an alternative to so just an example to share about how a well meaning institution is forcing us to be the problem that we are trying to work against. And Cataldi has stepped in from both a grant perspective and investment capital perspective with terms that have allowed for this project to be affordable have allowed for us to say no to this particular CDFI. And the term that they're putting up against that is allowed us to say no with dignity and to say, we're not going to raise rents on our people, we're not going to do that. That is fundamentally against what we believe in. And so we're not going to do that. And without fatalities, money, we will be forced to just go to a different financial institution. And this is really how these problems in development perpetuate. Because there's not the capital of coming into these projects on such extractive terms that the extraction perpetuates through the development in the ways rents are charged or how tenants are treated. So that cycle continues. Khatallah has allowed us to, for now break that cycle and say no, we're not going to accept this because it does not allow us to live into our values and what it has felt to receive that just even even grants that support our work. Were worker owned cooperative, people assume we're a nonprofit. We're working towards a hybrid model where we do have some element of a nonprofit in our work, but we are a worker owned cooperative and the IRS has two delineations you're either a for profit or nonprofit from a tax perspective, you could be a corporation with your foundation, not really be charitable and get your 501 C three status. But if you're a worker owned cooperative, you're designated to be a for profit company, we're expected to be sustainable to our own revenue, right. And we're working towards that. And if we are talking about solving for a lot of these historical and ongoing inequities, then the math has to add up. We can't say we are solving for these things or wanting to address these things. And then on the back end, go and charge market rate rent to the poor working class communities that we're intending to build power with, we can't do that that's fundamentally in conflict with that, because market rate rents are rents that our people cannot afford, in receiving this capital and receiving the grants. And the grants, by the way, are coming on. I think a lot of our listeners work in nonprofits, and everyone has received a grant, if you've ever worked in a nonprofit, a lot of the nonprofits also have certain grant requirements that feel very extractive that are an unnecessary use of time and resources from community groups that are trying to do this work on the ground every day. Whereas fatalities, money has felt like we want we have codesign the terms which in itself of transformation, we have sat together on both alone and even certain amount with a grant. And they have asked us for our feedback in terms of what feels right to you all in terms of the flow and lifecycle of these projects in terms of when you want to report things and how you want to report them. And we understand that reporting is not just financial reporting. But other means of reporting, not just the impact, but the challenges that you all are facing. And so we co design these terms together in terms of how we want to report on the work we're doing. And there's been a lot of times where we've had to say, we're not quite ready for that particular requirement. Can we move that to next year or two years from now and they've been, it's been a very easy conversation and of your understanding conversation. What has felt to me and to the team one before fatality is Grant, I had founded the guild in 2015, we got fatalities, first grand and 2020. So for five years, not only was I not getting paid, but I was paying our team out of my savings. And I'm lucky to have had a savings having worked in corporate America before. That's a whole other story. But like, so I was putting my personal finances on the line. And so receiving this money for the first time I could pay myself to do this work, I could pay my team the salaries that they deserve with benefits. And that in itself was just, it's like something in your body, like your shoulders have been tense and hardened for like, My husband always jokes that like my shoulders are always up to my ears, just because the amount of tension I hold on, I don't even realize this. But anyway, receiving this money had felt like an exhale. And not just that not just like an Excel, but it felt like, well, now we can really, really dream into these possibilities of building this different future. And know that those dreams can be a reality. Now, it allowed me to make the Gilda worker cooperatives and now the people on my team are not just my staff, they are owners in the business. And so when we talk about the racial wealth gap, the two ways that wealth has been built in this country has been real estate and entrepreneurship. And I get to live into the values of solving for this violence that exists within the racial wealth gap by not just building community wealth building through real estate, but also have my team be business owners with me. And that has allowed for its own transformation. And it's challenged me to not be the lone leader. I think a lot of founders like develop not our fault, but we develop this sort of like a martyr complex. In doing this work, we're forced to, we burn ourselves out and we put everything on the line. And this money this believe in you money has allowed me to pause and actually get to live into some of the values that I know I felt deeply, but have not been able to operationalize in practice for so long, because I couldn't find a means to do it. And now there is and so what I want to say is believe in you money is money that also allows people to break cycles and not perpetuate the harm because we're swimming in a lot of these systems of oppression, we are not separate from it, we are oftentimes made complicit in it. And there's harm that is perpetuated through how workplaces are set up, whether it's a nonprofit or for profit, nonprofits are absolutely complicit in this to believe in you money gives you the opportunity to break that cycle and buy you the time to paste the work in a way that allows you to be in right relationship. Like we've said the word right relationship, I'm gonna explain what it means throughout the season. And I think what believe a new money allows you to do is is to truly operationalize being in right relationship to yourself to your body, to the people on your team, to the communities you do this work with and for, to your family, to everything and so, it's so so transformational. Like I can't say enough of bit and I think everyone should go check out a lack of work and the metallic foundations work, you know, it's not lost on me and it shouldn't be lost on anybody else that it is a black woman that has created this framework and this way of resourcing and movement and organizations and projects in this manner. And Qatar Foundation is truly transforming how philanthropy thinks about resourcing projects. And I want to be careful that we don't, as is so often done to black woman, and you, you know, Jessica, with your work with runway and your team as well is to not sort of like oh, like, we're going to uplift this work, you know, put it on a pedestal and clap our hands. And that's it. No, what the work of Amanda and Jessica and all of these people that Jessica has mentioned, even in the book, they are asking us to in each of our institutions, each of our organizations and our personal ways in which we relate to each other, they are asking us these questions to grapple with every day. And be honest, be honest about where we fall short. And oftentimes, we fall short, because it is the systems that are set up against us. And that forced us to individualize the solutions. And I think Sonya says this in one segment of her episode on this podcast, we don't have to feel ashamed about that. Because shame oftentimes pushes us to inaction. We don't have to be ashamed about it. But we have to be honest about the truth telling part, the fact that we are all complicit. And so now knowing that information, what does accountability look like? What is our responsibility look like? So yeah, it has been transformational on every level in, I can feel it in my body, I can feel it in how my team shows up every day and how we do this work, we're able to show up the level of care that we would not otherwise do, because we can take our time with certain things now. Whereas before, we might have to rush through decisions or rush through certain processes and not give it the time it takes to be trauma informed and things like that. Yes, it has felt beautiful. It has also felt very strange.
The flip side of it has been sometimes it has felt like it's almost more pressure but not intentionally right to believe in you money that could tell you Foundation has created has been to relieve pressure off of organizations. And I think for black and brown women especially but people in general who are not otherwise given opportunities. When we do get the opportunities we feel this sense of, Well, this is our one shot. And if it doesn't work, and if we fail at it, we will never get another chance. And so I want to mention that because that has come up for me a lot. And I know it has come up for our team as well. It's almost like we're waiting for the other shoe to drop sometimes that's the feeling that we've had. And the beautiful thing about being in right relationship with somebody that is investing in your work is that we were able to even have these conversations with them. And so certain terms maybe got adjusted based off of what we were naming or when we were naming certain things like they were able to show up with more funding or different types of funding for us. That was an unusual feeling. Unusual feeling in this circumstance, I'll say, but yes, it's been really, really transformational. And the times in which I've given believe in you, Miami, they've been much smaller amounts, of course, but there's been two businesses, two women led businesses locally here in Atlanta that I have really believed in. And it was two small loans that I gave to these two businesses, just out of, you know, personal savings. It was kind of what you mentioned, Andrew, we designed the terms together. And it was like no real rush, no big interest rate or anything. But you tell me when you're able to pay this back, and we can work with it. And what I've heard from them is that that that in itself has felt in the same way that I'm describing, it has felt both freeing, but also like, Hmm, like, what's the catcher? And so I think it allowed us to be in deeper relationship with each other, and build that trust together through this process of giving believe in you money and like for me to get front row seat and be an actual partner in one of the businesses. I'm a patron Oh, I'm a customer, which is really exciting. I think believing you money feels freeing, and there's a level of pressure that comes with it. But I think that's only because we have been so conditioned to have strings attached with every single thing. And so when it shows up differently, you're like, Hmm, this is exciting. This is great, and it's a little scary. But I think when you can push past that discomfort, what the leaving you money allows you to do is to live into your values. And I'm like, super grateful for that.
Andrew X 34:38
To briefly summarize what I shared and maybe briefly add to what Nikki shared. I think it's just right in the title of your book, Jessica, is what it felt like is love what the economy loves black people. And when we are moving in a loveless space consistently and then you receive love. Sometimes that can be hard to read. See if sometimes that can feel awkward sometimes, you know, whatever, and takes some courage to navigate that space. But ultimately, what is the experience of that, like, you know, I think that's a very individual thing. But I think we can all relate to that on a deeply personal level.
Jessica Norwood 35:17
Well, I think y'all got to the heart of the matter. And I'm really excited everybody, go buy the book, buy the book for yourself, buy the book for people that you love, buy a backup copy in case things get thick, and then you got to go to the copy that use the backup, cotton's like to buy all the copies. But I think what really resonated with what you both shared, Andrew, this point where you talked about how all of your ancestors, all of my ancestors have never seen this kind of money, I've always had to work. And so the ability to slow down ability to sort of get into right relationship with yourself with your ideas, the spaciousness I talk to entrepreneurs all the time about what it means to get money in right relationship to get believing you money. And I tell them, you need spaciousness. And everybody just sort of, again, just exhales and their shoulders dropped down from their ears. And there's this moment where their bodies just sort of relaxed, because you don't have to be in constant hustle trauma mode, that there is space in there as time for you to get the best, most thoughtful, loving interpretation of what you're trying to create out. Like, we can wait for that we want that. I think that's liberatory idea. And as we talk about it to each other, the way that our hearts open up, when we've given it those resources, the way our hearts open up when we receive it, Nikki, you talking about what it felt like how transformative it was to co design with Qatar Foundation, something that we don't often get invited to do to co design? How are we going to report this? And when do we even want to report these kinds of things, and being able to negotiate those things from a place of relationship, not power over or power under anybody. And that exhale that I think we both talked about, but that we all feel when we receive those kinds of resources that exhale that I have that spaciousness that I have somebody who gets it gets me a partner, that I'm not going it alone. That's a tremendous thing. And that is the reparative tissue that I'm asking for us to start to really push more. Yeah,
Nikishka Iyengar 37:33
this is beautiful. Thank you, Jessica.
Andrew X 37:36
I just want to say I'm deeply honored to continue being in relationship with y'all in this. And this is continuing to feel supported and transformative and fun. And I'm just so excited that we get to share these conversations with wider audience.
Jessica Norwood 37:50
I know I feel like such a listen, y'all, this is my favorite thing to talk about. So I'm so glad we had a chance to like jam out on love, and feelings around money. I mean, either ways where, because so I don't know, sometimes I really want to make sure that we have you know, topics and conversations where people can get the tactical, like, here's the example of how it works. But I just feel so grateful for us to talk about how it felt, how it feels. Because we don't always get a chance to talk about what it should feel like when we've done all these activities when we have, you know, crawled through glass and some of these relationships to get to that money or to change these terms, or do whatever thing we're trying to do, what does it feel like on the other side of that, and it should feel like joy, it should feel like liberation, it should feel a little scary to feel like whoa, what is this, all of the things should come up. And we should keep doing it for each other, and for others over and over and over again. Because just like we got a chance to feel it. Those entrepreneurs that we get to invest in whether it's with philanthropic capital or debt capital, however way that you decide to terminate or recoverable grant or whatever way you're doing it in a world doesn't matter. What matters is that we design it together that we feel good about what we've we've achieved together that the conversation and relationship and communication still feel strong, that we can come to each other when things feel sticky, or challenging, or when we might need to adjust in any kind of way that there a spaciousness for that there is responsibility to one another and accountability to one another. All those things feel really, really right and if we do that, and we do that everywhere, and we do that with a real focus on supporting Black creativity and innovation and ideas, we could change a lot about the trauma that are financial institution and the trauma of what it's been like to be people of color trying to build an idea or vision in this country and in this world even All right edit out all all the weird stuff though, Andrew, okay. Gotcha. Andrew. Andrew gotta edit this down to where we sound like we was. We were on the right. Brought broadly, I thought it was a really beautiful interview y'all, I think. Yeah, great. Yeah. How did y'all like my extra reading? That's the first time I've ever done that. Did I sound cue
Nikishka Iyengar 40:22
you sounded cute. And like I said, you know, we didn't know the story, the Genesis note.
Jessica Norwood 40:27
I've been making whole books around here now telling me all everything. So
Andrew X 40:33
I loved that. Jessica. It was new information for me. And just so sweet to like, get to see some of those parts of you and your story.
Jessica Norwood 40:40
Yeah, yeah. But my publisher told me I needed to have excerpts ready, like short ones, and then like longer ones. And so I've been playing around or thinking about like, what would I use in the XR so I tried this is my first time ever doing it. So try that with you all. Are you going to record the
Andrew X 40:58
audiobook? And the same question? No,
Jessica Norwood 41:01
I wanted to, but then it got into this. Listen, I've caused so much trouble. I don't have a book cover yet. I caused so much trouble with the book cover and everything else. i By the time it got down to you doing the audio book, I just didn't feel like I should fight for anything else. Because I had been a train wreck to everybody on a creative abdicated that one and just said, just let it be somebody who black, you know, in a woman who's got the spice to add it right. But you know, I saw no, I'm not going to be doing it. Someone was telling me that somebody we know where their own book and they were highly fucking disappointed. And I was like, damn, Ouch, that hurts. I don't want to fall into that. You know, I can't remember who it was. They were like, Yeah, but part of recording your own book is that you have to meet like some, you know, even go to a studio, all these things. And they have found that yeah, you can do it. But they've always felt like it took a lot of explaining and information to try to get the author, you know, who's not really a technical speaker and that way or whatever voiceover person or I don't always call but to perform when you can hire people who know how to do that and have the proper studios and equipment to send the band. So I decided to just lean on, you know, get whoever so no, but Did I sound cute reading it though? I felt like I could do it. But you know.
Nikishka Iyengar 42:23
Yeah, I feel like you would be the best at it. Like I can't imagine somebody else doing your but yeah, like, I guess I hear you.
Jessica Norwood 42:31
Yeah, it'll be different. But maybe y'all have that point of view, because you've heard me speak before. But everybody doesn't have a really great sound. And so I can understand why they were like, Oh,
Andrew X 42:45
I think you need a second opinion on that.
Jessica Norwood 42:47
You think so that they heard this.
Andrew X 42:50
You have a particularly powerful and empathetic voice.
Jessica Norwood 42:56
Y'all don't add no more work for your friend.
Andrew X 43:01
I'm not saying it has to happen with any kind of urgency Jessica?
Jessica Norwood 43:05
How asked Andrew. All right. Point they are right out ask
Andrew X 43:11
you, you can have more than one person read an audio book. There's there's different the same book and different people read it. So you could have
Jessica Norwood 43:19
made up that rule. I've never heard more than one person reading the audiobook before.
Andrew X 43:23
I have audiobooks all the time. And there's different there's sometimes there's books that have different people reading the book. I don't know if there's like publisher limitations or whatever. But
Nikishka Iyengar 43:34
like, you know, a write the new addition is the one is read by Jessica and then we really release it all over again and get more people to buy it.
Andrew X 43:45
I'm saying don't rule it out. All right. All right. All right. All right, Nick, he's got a point. As tired
Jessica Norwood 43:49
y'all got to stand though. That's the part that I get like, this has been really this was, I wouldn't do this again, anytime soon. Let me be clear. Now. Now that I have done the book. I know how to do it faster. And I know what I would do differently and all of those things. And it's not something that I would turn around and do again, my people who are like, my next book is coming out next year and my neck. I don't know that I have the stamina for that. Yeah, well, you
Andrew X 44:14
know, we support your rest and pacing.
Jessica Norwood 44:17
Yeah, we I'm, I'm ready for you guys's books next, and then I'll be ready for another book. So that could be like, you know, in the next two, three years, because it takes about that time to get one finished. But two years about the next two or three years and your books are done, then I'll come back and maybe do another so maybe you're five now five years from now. I'll be back. But yeah, yeah, it's been a really trippy thing. And the other part about the book thing is that the amount of times that I've cried, I was like, Oh God, I am not the expert on this subject matter. There are so many people who are way more brilliant who are so much more articulate than I am. What in the hell am I doing imposter syndrome imposter syndrome, whatever, whatever. And there was a moment where I was like, Oh, my knees really in just agony crying about like what I've got myself into, and whether or not I'll be able to even represent any idea that made any sense or felt like I could stand by it for the rest of my life, because that's what happens when you write a book, right? People gonna be like, Oh, you said that shit forever and ever and ever and ever and ever. And I remember praying, and God saying to me, that it was the season for me to be a witness. And I think I'm gonna share this with y'all. Maybe around that timeframe. But I've had for the most part of my life, this identity, that I need to be a leader that I need to step up, not a leader from a position of I want to lead everything, but somebody's got to go out in front and clear the pathway, so to speak, and I have been up for the task to do some of that. But in this part of my life, I was like, I don't know how to clear this pathway. And I was like, when are you clear the pathway by being a witness by just telling what happens and what has happened? And what you've seen? It doesn't mean I know everything and doesn't mean I want to know everything. I believe this should be a starting off point for all of us to collectively say, how can we do something that loves black people to orient from that place versus, you know, I'm going to make a policy that does this, this and this, and this and this? Well, you know, good and darn well, you talking about you want to correct and help people in black communities. But yet, you're not talking about it from that place. So you're not orienting. But if I'm going to work in a black community, I can't come with these extractive practices, it doesn't matter if I think it's okay. It's just not going to be okay to do it that way. And so, I was able to make it through writing a book by shifting my perspective and my voice towards the witness voice not towards the I'm the leader, or I know what's best voice because I really don't know I'm here learning like everybody else.
Andrew X 47:01
Yeah, and I appreciate you sharing that Jessica is I just think No, I think I think that there's such like such a deep realness and authenticity and I think a lot of times especially for for women, especially women of color feeling like they have to put on that, you know, I don't know armor so to speak, and it's just I think it's sweet to see acknowledge that courageous vulnerability side of navigating that and how you came to feeling that it was you know, approachable in an authentic way.
Jessica Norwood 47:30
Yeah, thank you so much for engaging the conversation with me today y'all I appreciate it. So much. So I'm I'm grateful I'm grateful
Andrew X 47:39
for all y'all tuning in to this second season of the road repair stay tuned we'll be out with Season Three before you know it
Jessica Norwood 47:49
we did it end of season two end of season two whoo we did it we need like a theme music like oh we have a really incredible you know, is it for the for the series that I almost sort of like you know, you know, like a theme music to close out right now.
Speaker 5 48:06
You know, I took a civil war to set the slaves free but long before that slaves were escaping in large numbers this particular song follow the drink and God tells a story of this underground railroad there used to be lots and lots of verses but now they're only three follow the drinking
Speaker 6 48:31
the drinking the good or the old line is you're waiting for a carry the jury can go follow the directing drinking on the weekend for the carry the Deray now when the sun goes back, and the Bruce Quayle Oh, follows the terrain can carry you can go drinking go find the drink and
Speaker 6 49:45
the drink and go. Now the river bank ematic route. The dead trees will show you But if you just follow the
Unknown Speaker 50:19
man is
Unknown Speaker 50:28
now
Unknown Speaker 50:37
gone God
Unknown Speaker 50:43
by the Drake and God
Unknown Speaker 50:55
bless my god
Unknown Speaker 51:17
can go
RTR Themed Outro 51:34
thank you for joining us on the road to repair. Our greatest hope is that this show will have a transformative impact for those of you tuning in the road to repair podcast is produced by Andrew X Nick ishka Young guard and Jessica Norwood with post production support from Andrew X. Music for the show was produced by Andrew x in close collaboration with artists and sound designer Zachary Seth Greer and the luscious vocals and original poetics of Nyima tenement. Shout out to sofa hood for all of the amazing artwork, you can check out more of all of their great work on their websites which you can find links to add the roto repair.com We always love the social media shout outs and you can help this message ripple out to those who might really benefit from it by rating this show and leaving a review on Apple podcasts. And if you feel called to you can make a donation to support the show at WWW dot the road to repair.com Thanks again for tuning in and stay tuned for our next episode.
We stand with a land we are far more than a commodity we join with a water bodies are not property. We're reclaiming our shared sovereignty and shaping an economy based on reciprocity, cooperative, accountable round and justice and ecology. The Empire is toppling who want to be about this prophecy. We've been summoned to the summit. Trust me here for something what is now possible? Who are we becoming? The road to repair is sponsored by the guild in one way. The Guild develops community owned models of Land, Housing and real estate as a means to build power and self determination in black and other communities of color. Runway envisions a world where black entrepreneurs thrive in a reimagined economy rooted in equity and justice.
